Brett Ethridge (00:02.538)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Faithful Fatherhood podcast. I am Brett Ethridge, co-host of the podcast, not joined this week by Perry Hughes, my co-host who is traveling, but I am joined by a good friend, an old friend, Dan DeMay. Dan, welcome to the show.
Dan (00:18.198)
Hey, thank you very much. Glad to be here.
Brett Ethridge (00:20.594)
It's Good to have you back, right? So you're a repeat guest for those of you new to the show. Go back and check episode 21. So it's been a while. It's been a couple of years since we talked and we had a great conversation about really marriage and its role on our ability to show up well as fathers. You said a lot of really interesting thing that I shift. I think really shifted my thinking in a lot of ways. And I know we got a lot of feedback from listeners about really just sort of that shift as perspective.
And I expect the same type of conversation today. again, good to have you, Pastor Dan is the lead pastor at Shine Church in Colorado. He was the associate pastor at the church I attended for years. We lived in Colorado, some of you may know, for about a decade before we moved back east. He's just an all-around good guy and a good quarterback.
We played a lot of flag football together. So I'll just start by asking, you're not still playing flag football, are you? What are you up to these days, recreationally?
Dan (01:17.934)
I was gonna I was gonna play flag football but we didn't get enough teams to play this year so yeah it's been a couple years since I've played flag football but I do still play on a rec league for basketball every every Sunday so staying in shape that way for sure
Brett Ethridge (01:33.61)
Nice. Yeah, that's right. I forgot you're a good basketball player too. Yeah. How are your hamstrings holding up? I've started to play softball. actually, the new church I joined last year, they started a softball league and I'm pretty good baseball player, pretty good softball player, but man, I came up lame sprinting for the first time. My hammy was sore for several weeks. So that's something we deal with when we age.
Dan (01:57.294)
I thank God every week when we get done, just that I didn't get hurt and the health of it. I actually got a really bad black eye about three weeks ago. It got hit right in the head and it just, the next couple days it just totally was purple all the way around. But that's the only physical thing that I've had happen. So I continue to thank God for that. So it's good.
Brett Ethridge (02:18.08)
It is. Okay, well, yeah. Praise Jesus for that. So, well, let's dive into the topic today and we are going to continue a series we started last episode. So if you haven't listened to episode 79, we're in a series about the role of a father. What is our actual role? What does the Bible say about what our role is? And I think certain roles just sort of come to mind. We're supposed to be the provider, are we?
Dan (02:27.662)
That's it.
Brett Ethridge (02:46.272)
How are we supposed to be the provider? And so we really explored that in the last episode. Go back and check that out. And today we're gonna be talking about a role of a father being the spiritual head of the household. And what does that mean? What does that look like? Is that actually our role? That's probably gonna be question number one. But I'll start it this way. I was talking to a friend, my son Declan, I do trail life with him. And we were at a troop meeting a couple weeks ago, maybe actually last week.
And I was talking to another one of the dads about the series. He was asking about the podcast and I started listing sort of the roles of the father. And I was like, provider, protector, by the way, stay tuned. We'll do an episode about protector at some point. And then I mentioned spiritual head of the household and he stopped me. goes, that's the hardest one. And I said, like, what do you mean? What, why do you think it's the hardest one? He goes, because I have no idea what I'm doing.
He said, I never had anybody model for me what it would look like to be the spiritual head of the household. So I'm just trying to figure it out. I'm winging it. And so that was his feedback. And I thought that was really interesting and an anecdote I wanted to share to sort of kick this off. And my first question to you, Pastor Dan, would be, is it hard for a father to be the spiritual head of the household, to step into that? And even before you answer that, did you have a good role model?
What was your father like as the head of your household?
Dan (04:11.406)
I grew up Catholic. My dad was a priest and my mom was a nun before I ever came into the world. Obviously they got out of that to join together in marriage and then I'm the oldest of four kids. So I was raised Catholic and so we would attend church on a weekly basis.
go to mass. My dad was a pretty passive individual. He's an incredible loving man, but he would get stuck in work a lot of times, and I don't really remember him spiritually leading us kids very, very much. mean, other than going to church every week and participating in the
youth curriculum that they had at the Catholic Church in our small town. I don't really remember anything too extensive at home. I mean, I know that they love God and I remember, you know, talk about, you know, spiritual things, but I don't really remember my dad leading very well in that particular area.
Brett Ethridge (05:26.112)
What do you think then you might have missed out on? Knowing what you know now, you've led your family, you have grown adult children who are now out of the house, so you've walked through this journey, and we'll get into that a little bit, about how you tried to be a good spiritual head of your own household. But even looking back on it, what might have been missing from your upbringing if you would have been able to be more of a spiritual leader? What might that have looked like? What might you have gained in your childhood?
Dan (05:53.71)
That's a great question. The thing that comes to mind is that I had to figure things a lot, figure out a lot of things as I got married and then ended up having our two kids and not really having much of a spiritual role model set that I could look back on.
It's interesting, they loved me well, so that was super easy to be able to translate then into my wife and my kids. But I just find myself thinking, I probably missed out on the preparation of how to be a good husband and a good father.
Brett Ethridge (06:35.71)
Yeah, and that's huge. And that's exactly what my buddy was talking about, right? If that was missing, we're sort of left to try to figure it out. Where are we? Are there other people we can turn to? Were there priests, pastors, friends, other fathers, anybody else maybe that you called on to sort of try to figure out what it might look like in your own life? Or did you just really turn to God and in your own walk, try to figure out what it might be like for you to lead your own family?
Dan (07:05.944)
Probably a little mix of both, I actually probably got a lot of information from not only pastors that I worked under, know, that right on early on in my marriage we went into full-time ministry and so, and watching some of the pastors that were older than I, and learning actually things to do, and actually learning a lot of things not to do. Just watching the dynamic, family dynamics of certain individuals and...
Brett Ethridge (07:27.465)
You
Dan (07:34.188)
just getting that mentorship. think, you the church that I worked at for 19 years, the pastor there was just very, very good in regards to loving and blessing his kids.
You know, Pastor John was just absolutely amazing of speaking that out, not only individually to them in private, but sharing with the church and just how to do that from a public standpoint and how to kind of be leading spiritually from that perspective. And so I gleaned a lot from that for sure as my kids were little. I remember even as early as them being five and three, getting away for a couple days just to pray so that I could get a blessing to speak over them.
both still have that blessing framed and they go to it every once in a while and I'll hear from them. They're 28 and 26 now and I'll hear from them and they'll remind me of the blessing I wrote when they were little kids and how it has actually played out for today.
Brett Ethridge (08:28.49)
Man, that's huge. Yeah.
Yeah. And what a great example of being a spiritual leader in your household, stepping into that role and even just having that experience, that blessing ceremony. And by the way, we actually talked about that on the podcast as well. don't remember the episode number, but you guys can scroll back and look for the blessing. We actually talked with Pastor John about that and it's just, it's an incredible way to speak blessing over your kids and impart into them something that I think helps to call out their identity.
And absolutely, if you do nothing else as a spiritual leader in their lives, I mean, that's absolutely huge. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. Let's actually step back though. think we're sort of operating under the premise that we are actually called to be the spiritual head of our household. So are we? Like what are the biblical foundations or underpinnings? Why would we just assume or think that this is one of our roles?
Dan (09:28.814)
You know, that's interesting to me. In my development, developing of being a husband and a parent and throughout the years, I actually...
Something in me gets a little cringy when I talk and I hear about spiritual, are you the spiritual head of your family or spiritual head of your marriage? Because I am a firm believer that the head is God, that we should make God the head of our marriage, that we should make God the head of our family, that God should be the head of our parenting. And so when we use the terminology of being the spiritual head of our family, I get a little apprehensive because I feel like that puts a weight on
man, on a husband, on a father that I don't know if we are supposed to carry. And I understand that there is...
There is the headship, I mean even 1 Corinthians 11, you know, it speaks to this, but I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. And so I understand from a biblical perspective that there are, there is a headship and there's an authority structure, but I feel like that a lot of times men end up either feeling like they have to be God for their family,
or their family expects them to be God. And it's a weight that I'm not sure that we're supposed to really carry. And we throw around these terminologies of being a spiritual head when I just see that I think that we're really just supposed to be conduit between the Lord and our families, if that makes sense.
Brett Ethridge (11:11.358)
Yeah, it does. that doesn't then preclude the idea that our wives can also be that role in a sense as well, right? Or is there something that we are supposed to do in our families that maybe isn't reserved for our wives? And I guess where I'm coming from in that is, and this is just sort of a personal struggle might not be the right word, but I think about how I came into
my marriage relationship. And then if I'm honest with myself, I would say that my wife was further along spiritually when we got married than I was. However you would define that, however you would quantify that, I would look at her and I would think, man, she has such a close relationship with God. She's got a great prayer life. She hears from God in a way that sometimes I question whether or not
Dan (11:53.388)
Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (12:07.898)
I do know we didn't have kids obviously we went years before we had kids but even in that environment I think I was a little self-conscious early on about how to try to step into that role because would she allow me to would she respect me does she realize that I'm secretly hiding the fact that I'm not as far along as she is like as if she weren't aware right she loved me for who I am and and she was trying to
facilitate me growing in my relationship with Christ. And so it was this great thing, but I think there are probably a lot of men listening to this who think, like, who am I? You know? So, who am I? Why can't my wife just be that conduit for my family? Does that make sense?
Dan (12:51.222)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we touched about it way back when in our last podcast about this, I think, you know, when God created man, he created him in his image. And then it says, it's not good that he is alone. So he took out of man the rib. And I think he was very intentional about
taking the rib. He didn't take some hair, he didn't take a toenail, he took a rib. And I think we talked about the rib symbolized, you know, protection. And I think that there are certain things that God removed from the man. Again, man was created in his image, so he had all of God's image. He removed some of that image and put it into woman.
And I presented, think back then when we talked about this, that I think that God put the protective nature from a spiritual sense into the woman. that's, I have a very, very similar experience with my wife and the fact that I always felt like she could pray better, she heard from God better, the discernment elements. Well, that makes sense if you realize that if God took out that kind of intuitive or discerning piece out of man and put it in woman, that they would be better at that.
Brett Ethridge (14:05.61)
Yeah.
Dan (14:06.916)
Lord becomes something that is something that I don't have and if I feel like I'm supposed to be the spiritual head and I'm supposed to be the one that knows what to pray and discern all things and have the intuition for these things but God removed it out of me and put it in my wife then that's going to be incredibly frustrating for me.
Brett Ethridge (14:27.594)
Yeah, yeah, and like you talked about, that's also assuming that I'm supposed to be God in my family, I'm not. I don't have to be all of that and do all of that.
Dan (14:38.798)
Right, and isn't that free? Because that just takes the pressure off. And I see in the Bible all the times there's all of these correlations, like in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, Paul is writing about spiritual gifts, but then he goes into our physical bodies as an example of those spiritual gifts. Well, if I could do that for marriage and family real quick, I think if God's the head, and we know that
Brett Ethridge (14:40.563)
It is.
Brett Ethridge (14:57.664)
Hmm.
Dan (15:08.318)
our wives were made or created from our ribs. So let's make them the rib cage.
Let's be men who are the spine. We're the structure, we're the support. And our spines actually take the signal from the head and bring it to our body, to our family, and take the message from our family to the Lord. And I just get a freeing picture of men walking in spiritual authority being a conduit between the Lord and their wife and their kids and their family. And that pressure for me, I can do that. I can take
Brett Ethridge (15:16.586)
Hmm.
Brett Ethridge (15:43.316)
Yeah.
Dan (15:43.968)
the discernment that my wife gets and I can bring it before the Lord and ask him what he thinks about that and then reveal that and bring that what I feel like the Lord has spoken to me about that back to my wife and to my kids and then we can collaborate and work together on actually what does this look like and it empowers my wife to operate in her giftings it empowers our kids to operate in their giftings because they understand that hey dad or my husband is going to bring these things
the Lord and then we're going to work on these things together. And I think spiritual authority for a marriage or for a household is very much simply that. Bringing things before the Lord. Serving your wife, serving your kids in a way that you are actually taking
their thoughts, their opinions, their ideas, their weaknesses and their strengths, and you're bringing it before the Lord and then allowing God to speak into those things through you, but because the Lord is instructing you to, not because you have some obligation or some duty to be this spiritual head.
Brett Ethridge (16:52.488)
Yeah, or even some extra ability to somehow be more equipped to do it. And I think what you said is a huge paradigm shift for a lot of people because what you're not saying is, and what the Bible doesn't actually say, and yet I think a lot of people would interpret it as, that I am somehow the head of the household and operating from almost a dictatorial place and my way or the highway and
I heard this and this is what's going to happen and this goes and all of that and that's absolutely not what you're saying is our role.
Dan (17:31.182)
Correct. As a matter of fact, that section of Scripture that I read earlier, 1 Corinthians 11, let me read it again. But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ. The head of every woman is man. And the head of Christ is God. Something super interesting here. In our world, that we would kind of lay this out, I think we would have written it, and the head of Christ is God.
and the head of man is Christ and the head of woman is man. We would have put a very nice pyramid structure to it, but it doesn't do this. It says that the head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is man, but then it says and the head of Christ is God. Super interesting that God the Father actually puts him down at the bottom of the list rather than the top.
Brett Ethridge (18:04.736)
Hmm.
Brett Ethridge (18:18.389)
Hmm.
Brett Ethridge (18:26.792)
Interesting.
Dan (18:27.67)
And it actually reminds me of Philippians. Let me flip over there real quick. Philippians chapter 2.
Dan (18:39.288)
Sorry. Verses one through eight. I'll just start in verse three actually. Verse five. In your relationship with one another, have the same mindset of Christ Jesus who...
Being in very nature God did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, and being found in appearance as man. He humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. And so here we have the example of
Christ our head, first in that list, right? And what did he do? He put himself under. In Ephesians when it talks to marriage, right? Before it gets into the wife's role and the husband's role, it actually says submit to one another. If you look up that word submit, it actually means to voluntarily place yourself under. And so,
Brett Ethridge (19:38.154)
soon.
Dan (19:40.588)
And even in the role of the husband in Ephesians, right? Husbands love your wife, says Christ loved the church. Well, how did Christ love the church? Well, I just read it. He completely humbled himself. He gave his life for the church. And so we twist this somehow and we use those verses to say we're the spiritual head, we're the spiritual lead. We put on this pressure that we can't even walk in, we can't carry. And then we push it downward and tell our wives and our kids that they have to do whatever we say.
see that from from our father and how he actually put the whole authority structure together. I think we have this terrible pyramid scheme thing that looks like you know you got this leader and then this leader and this leader and I just think that that is just not how God desires us to operate in our family and so when it that's again that brings up that apprehension when I hear are you the spiritual head of your family
Brett Ethridge (20:30.282)
Yeah.
Dan (20:39.678)
Yes, I see that biblically, but probably not in the way you're going to define that.
Brett Ethridge (20:44.424)
Yeah, it's much more of a humble position. It's saying, I reluctantly am the head of the household spiritually because it says it, but I'm going to step into that. And my primary role is actually to serve my family, to be humble, to serve my family as Christ has always served me. So I love the way that you position that. I do think it takes a lot of pressure off of me personally.
Dan (20:49.204)
my gosh.
Dan (21:01.486)
Yep.
Brett Ethridge (21:12.01)
I'm sure it takes a lot of pressure off of men and yet there still is a role that we need to step into and some things that maybe are not natural to us that we never had modeled for us that we're not quite sure how to do it or what to do. Okay, so Brett and Pastor Dan are saying we need to serve our family, but if I serve my family, am I not really their leader? Are they gonna look down on me? Are they gonna think less of me? So there's a lot going on here.
Let's talk about some of the things we can do though, or should do. So, without lording it over our family though, what are some things that are really on us to do to try to lead our family as well?
Dan (21:53.902)
As you're saying that the first thought that comes to my mind is I think it's Matthew 6 Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and Then all these things shall be added unto you I think that the best thing you can do to serve your wife and to serve your children is to seek first the kingdom of God
and his righteousness and to be an individual that is doing everything they possibly can to bring glory to God and then to love other people. And in doing so you become you become somebody that your wife and your kids will want to follow because you are seeking
you're seeking the Creator, you're seeking really the head, if God's the head of the family, you're seeking instruction, you're seeking wisdom, you're seeking Him for all of these things. And then what that does is in a practical sense, He begins to give us really practical things to do in order to lead. And we can start, you know,
valuing our wives and our kids and actually involving them in decisions that we make. think one of the greatest ways to serve is to involve people in your decision-making process. know in a, just in a business sense, I struggle with churches. I'll just go where I live. But I struggle with churches that are led top down. Because
Brett Ethridge (23:26.687)
Yeah.
Dan (23:31.822)
you're relying on the vision that God has given to one man.
what I have seen that has a lot of fruit is more of a collaborative leadership style where, okay, there may be somebody leading it, but they want everybody's opinion, they want everybody's voice, and they pull that in together. And I think you can do that even when you have little kids. Now, it looks different because when your kids are little, you're Moses, right? I've only heard it this way. When your kids are little, you're Moses. And as they grow into their teenagers and you transition from being Moses, the law giver, to Jesus, the one that...
gives grace and allows people to make mistakes and he still loves them in the midst of that. So it looks different from when they're little kids to as they start to grow older, but I think you can still involve every member of your family in the decision making process rather than lording over them.
And so seeking God, involving your family, helping them feel valued and important in the middle of that. I think another key one is to stay humble and to admit it when you're wrong. I don't know how many times that, and my wife really modeled this well for our family as well, but the two of us would tell our kids all the time, hey, we've never pastored. We've never pastored a kid that's 13. So give us grace and understanding.
Brett Ethridge (24:54.026)
Hahaha.
Dan (24:54.926)
Hey, we've never, we've never parented, I think I said pastor, sorry, we've never parented a kid that was, you know, 12 or 13 or we've never parented a kid who's 16 and can drive. We've never parented a kid who has moved out of the house. And even today, we still say to our 28 year old son and 26 year old son, we've never parented grown up children that are in your stage of life. And so we're, still trying to figure that out. And by showing that humility,
man, it opens our kids' hearts. And I think that ultimately, as I'm just thinking out loud off the top of my head here, is to lead your family well, maybe a good litmus test would be, what's the condition of your wife's heart? What's the condition of your kids' hearts? And are they open or are they closed off?
And I think a practical spiritual leader is always looking for ways to open their wives and their kids' hearts.
Brett Ethridge (25:57.62)
Yeah. Praying with them, asking forgiveness when we mess up, those are huge. I often, I think about, I think about when Jesus admonished, you know, the spiritual leaders of the day about them, you know, praying loudly on the street corners, essentially, as if to draw attention to themselves, you know, pray quietly, you know, do your religious devotions quietly, just between you and God, so that you're not drawing attention to yourself.
And I bring that up though because, you know, like my kids never see me reading the Bible. And the reason is because I'm using my Bible app on my phone. They probably think I'm on social media all the time. Like, dad, how come you, so I'm sort of being tongue in cheek a little bit, but I think it's a serious thing. Is it important for our kids to actually see us doing?
things like reading our Bible and praying every once in while. My kids will sort of walk in while my wife and I are having a prayer time when we're not sort of in our own bedroom doing our prayer time. is it important to let our kids see us praying together and see us reading our Bible and we take them to church? Or is that drawing attention to ourselves? Does that matter?
Dan (27:10.374)
The thought that comes to my mind is I think that's important, but I think what maybe carries a little bit greater weight is to be able to actually tell your kids what the Lord has shown you in those times. So maybe they didn't see you pray, but you've got a teenager and you go to them and say, hey,
Brett Ethridge (27:24.69)
Yeah, that's huge. Yeah.
Dan (27:33.582)
You've asked if you could go over to so-and-so's house, but something in our heart when we prayed about that doesn't sit right. Can you tell us why that might not sit right? And all of a sudden they're like, oh my gosh, they're going to God about this time with me going over my friend's house? Or there's been times where Kim, my wife in particular, will have gotten something from the Lord that there's no way.
No way that we would have known, but the Lord showed it to her and then we presented it to one of our kids, especially when they were teenagers, and they would go, how did you know that? And their eyes get super big and we would just go, well, we've asked the Lord. You know, so when it comes to the parenting aspect of this, somebody told me way back when and it was just so good. They're not my kids. Yeah, they're not. They're the Lord's kids.
The Lord has given me the honor and the responsibility to co-parent with him. And so in doing so, he's going to actually lead us in that. And to model that to our kids, I think is probably even more important than letting them see us reading our Bible or having times of worship or those are important. Don't get me wrong.
But to see the fruit that comes out of those times, I think is what makes the really important impact.
Brett Ethridge (28:59.434)
That's a good point. And those are good conversations to have around the dinner table too. And our kids love it too sometimes when we tell stories. Sometimes they'll say, us about a time you, whatever, that God showed up in your life or he did such and such with your finances or we've had some times where we feel like.
Dan (29:04.103)
absolutely.
Brett Ethridge (29:24.544)
angels have literally interceded on our behalf and we'll tell them that and they get really interested and excited to hear about those stories and those types of things. So I think what you're saying is spot on because it reveals that we are having an intimate relationship with our Creator whether they see it or not but it does suggest to them that that's an important part of life and walking with God and that's something they'll want to be doing themselves and need to do as they someday leave their own families.
Dan (29:37.634)
Yes.
Dan (29:51.214)
I think as you were just sharing that and the stories around the table and those kind of things, I'm reminded that we started Shine Church just, it'll be seven years ago in August, and it was about this time of the year, seven years ago, that we were making the decision whether we should do this or not. And one of the deciding factors that really helped my wife and I to make the decision was we saw this podcast.
about a young adult who had walked away from the church and they had asked her, know, what, how come you're walking away? And she goes, she goes, look, I know my parents believe in God and I have been raised in a family where that was always instructed and taught. And then she goes, but I've never ever really seen my parents step out in faith.
Brett Ethridge (30:43.252)
Hmm. So it wasn't real to them.
Dan (30:46.478)
There was not any real practical aptitude because what they saw was this just, okay, you've found your situation in life and you've gotten comfortable in this and now we live in a pretty comfortable and that's where most American families are, And I began to realize, oh my gosh, that's where my kids are. And my kids at the time were 21 and 19.
and we were trying to contemplate whether we start this church or not. And I realized that in all of their growing up, they hadn't seen us move out in radical faith. Even though when they were two and a newborn, we moved from South Carolina to Colorado, didn't have a house, didn't have a job, and we moved out because we felt like the Lord told us to go help this church plant. I mean, it was, man, huge step of faith. Like, okay, God, here we go. But they were two and a newborn.
Brett Ethridge (31:25.152)
Hmm.
Dan (31:44.012)
Right? By the time they got into the teenage years, they hadn't ever seen us really step out in a radical move or faith. And that was actually one of the key elements to stepping out into planting this church that we're doing. And it was interesting because here my 21-year-old son, 19-year-old daughter, they were not only blown away, but they were super impressed that we would step out in such great faith, not knowing what we were going to do.
Brett Ethridge (32:10.848)
Hmm.
Dan (32:12.512)
taking huge cuts in pay and just going, okay, you're going to be our provider. And I think that made more of an impact as a young man and a woman than anything that I could have.
Brett Ethridge (32:24.916)
Yeah, any sermons that they would hear you preach on Sunday. Yeah.
Dan (32:28.046)
Exactly.
Brett Ethridge (32:30.132)
Yeah, which, so a couple thoughts come to mind there. The first is it is important to us fathers to vocalize some of what is going on internally. I just started a business. I launched a business about four months ago. Haven't really talked about it on the podcast or anything like that and never really explained to my kids why I'm doing it. But there was very much a move of God and a confirmation of a lot of things sort of coming together that made me think it was the right next step.
But man, what a great opportunity. I was going to say I've missed, never missed it. I can always circle back and just sort of explain and tell sort of the backstory of that. They know I'm doing something new, whether they really understand what it is that I'm doing now or not, but that's a huge, huge way to say, look, I heard from the Lord and here's how it happened and here's how it was confirmed. And that builds testimony around God actually showing up. And then the second thing though that came to mind is,
Dan (33:04.908)
Absolutely.
Dan (33:19.532)
Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (33:26.546)
if we're gonna do what you're suggesting, it actually requires us to step out in faith, to actually walk the talk, to actually going all the way back to what you started this whole podcast with, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, because if we're doing that, if we're actually doing that as men, then we'll get downloads, then we'll have God steer us in different directions, then we'll have stories to tell, then we'll have things that our kids see us do, but if we're not starting there,
then there's nothing for them to see and there's no place for us to lead from. And so, yeah, it's super important.
Dan (33:59.19)
And so what do we do? We realize that we're supposed to be the spiritual lead, right? So then we start telling and demanding certain things. you know, we try to make up for where we aren't actually seeking the kingdom of God. And we maybe start to implement and enforce some kind of law.
Brett Ethridge (34:19.104)
because we think we should, but there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's just us being dictators in our own family.
Dan (34:24.736)
Right, because we're supposed to be the spiritual head.
Brett Ethridge (34:26.464)
Because we're supposed to be, yeah. so several ways we can go here, just a few more questions for you. You talked about being the spine, taking maybe what your wife has discerned, taking it to God, filtering it down to your family. How do you handle it if you and your wife maybe do see things differently or hear things a little bit differently? Or for some men,
and maybe this has been your case, my sense is it's maybe not your case, because I know Kim, but if their wives are resistant to them trying to take more of a spiritual head of the household type of a role. So for men who might be listening to this and thinking, you know, I've always struggled with this, I've never been sure how to do it, but I do want to step into it more fully, like what if my wife doesn't allow it? What would your advice be there?
Dan (35:18.446)
The first thing that comes to my mind is I think you have to set up a pattern where you really do prefer your spouse. Again, if our role as a husband is to die to ourselves, then unless we had a clear download directly from the throne room of the Lord,
maybe some of the decisions we're making, we should allow our wives to actually speak into them and then choose their way. I tell married couples before they get married, when I do premarital counseling, that your job, is to die to yourself. Die to you what you want to the things that you need in order to nurture and care for your wife's heart.
because that's her job. Her job is to, it says, submit to your husband as the head of the marriage as the body of Christ submits to the Lord. So the illustration is the body of Christ giving everything to God. And I think, you know, it's not just an obedience thing. My relationship with the Lord is not I just do whatever God tells me. My relationship with the Lord is tell him everything that makes me who I am. I tell him what makes me happy and sad, what brings me joy, what makes me angry, what frustrates me. I give him my wishes and my desires, but then ultimately,
lay that to him and most of the time I think God says, whether you go to the right or left, there I am with you, Isaiah 30, 21. But there are times where the Lord will go, no, this is what I want. And those are the times where like, okay, I'll go that way. That's the example for wives, right? And so I always tell couples, the wife's role in this whole submission aspect of this is to give their heart.
I think women by nature want to protect their ribs. They're going to protect their heart. And so what I see in marriages is this dynamic where the wife has shut off her heart. And so I think in order to bring that back, husbands, you need to do whatever you can to reopen that heart. And how do you do that? Well, you value their opinion. You value their thoughts. You actually make decisions based on
Dan (37:28.652)
based on those opinions and thoughts and you more often than not die to what you want and you go with what they want and again now if thus says the Lord if there that's when you can stand and go I just know that I know that God said to them but most decisions in life are not
at least not that I've experienced that are just thus saith the Lord. So if I choose to prefer her and go her way, die to myself, because that's the servant leadership, right? But it's taught often, I'm the man so we're doing it my way. Yeah, so how about this? How about dying to yourself like Christ died for you? And do it so often that your wife's heart is open.
Brett Ethridge (37:49.183)
Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (37:56.629)
Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (38:00.574)
Yeah, which is, I mean, it's a totally different way of thinking about it.
Dan (38:13.134)
So that when there's a decision that comes up that you really are struggling with, you've created the equity in the bank account of your wife's heart. That she would go, okay, I'll go with your way even though I don't agree or I don't feel like that this is right way. unfortunately, what we've done most of the time is we've taken this spiritual head thing and we've lorded it over them and closed off their hearts. And so it creates this
Brett Ethridge (38:30.656)
Yeah.
Dan (38:42.028)
really hard-headed, where you start butting heads instead of collaboratively coming together. And I think that is a majority of the time the husband's fault.
Brett Ethridge (38:57.46)
I'm sure it is. And we may come to a place then where we're like, okay, we gotta, I gotta start to unwind this a little bit. Okay, let's try to heal some of this. Let's get her to open her heart up a little bit. How do we do that? But also, would you agree with this premise though, that even if our wives' hearts are a little bit closed off, probably because of our own doing, that deep down they actually do want us and are hoping that we will step more fully into
spiritual leadership in our home.
Dan (39:29.806)
Probably. And my question would be is what is their definition of spiritual leadership?
Brett Ethridge (39:38.184)
Yeah, well I just think, just sort of a personal example, thinking back again to early on in our marriage, but I would say actually even now, just things that we're walking to right now, right? Where maybe I entered the relationship feeling a level below, a tear below my wife, right? So she would say, hey, let's pray together.
we're gonna pray together. She would always speak first. She would start to pray and then when she stopped talking, I was like, okay, I should probably add something, you know? And so I would say my little prayer or whatever. And I think deep down, she just wanted me to at some point actually just take the lead and just say, hey honey, why don't we pray about this? Or have we got a big decision coming up? Like, should I take this job? Let's pray about it. Like, what if I take that leadership role? And she's wanting me to and if I don't, she will.
because it's important to her that we pray about it before making a major life decision, but she wants me to do that. And if I'm not doing that, then maybe she starts to close off her heart a little bit. Maybe she starts to think she can't trust me to be the leader she needs me to be and so forth. So I think maybe that's a little bit more where I'm coming from with that question.
Dan (40:51.212)
So my thought on that is, are you actually having open, honest conversations about that? My wife and I have had that open conversation from time to time. they're just, I just don't think about it. I mean, I know she may want me to take the lead and say, hey, let's pray about this. But it just never crosses my mind.
Brett Ethridge (41:11.349)
Yeah.
Dan (41:21.102)
So how do you step in that? And when I communicate that to her and help her to realize, it just doesn't cross my mind, But if you will let me know, I'll jump in and take the lead from there. And so what will happen is Kim will often come to me and just go, hey, I feel like we need to pray for our kids. And I'll be like, OK, let's do it. And we'll jump in. And it's been just, it's been.
not always perfect, that's where a nice harmony comes in between the two of us, is she begins to realize, okay, I've been given that discernment piece, so I need to communicate that. And then I realize I'm the conduit, so I'm gonna bring what she brings to me. Now, can we put in our calendars or little reminders, with our wives and pray with our kids? Absolutely, and that probably wouldn't hurt.
Brett Ethridge (42:15.934)
Yeah. So you're suggesting that communication is important in marriage? that kind of what I'm taking away from this?
Dan (42:22.777)
That is exactly what I'm saying. And the truth is, every couple is a little bit different, right? And so, you know, what my wife needs in regards to me being a spiritual leader is probably going to be completely different than what your wife needs or what somebody else's wife needs. And that communication is super important to actually ask, what do you need from me? You know, and that's why I said, what is her definition of spiritual leadership?
Because that would be really good to know. And if you haven't had that conversation, well, that's a good date night conversation. What is spiritual leadership to you, honey? Because I would like to know what that looks like. And then being open and humble and honest to go, man, I struggle in that area, or I don't ever think about that. And so I want to be that way, but I'm going to need your help on this.
Brett Ethridge (42:56.201)
It is.
Dan (43:19.342)
But boy, that's tough for men to kind of humble themselves and put themselves in a position where they're actually willing to be vulnerable before their wives that way.
Brett Ethridge (43:28.414)
Yeah, it is, it is. But our life is about continual growth. At least I believe that. And so I've told on myself a little bit about how I sort of came into the marriage, but I did recognize that for me it was something that was important to me, that I did want to grow spiritually in my own walk with Christ, not only so that I could show up better for her and then eventually when I have kids, but just because my own walk with Christ is important to me.
What are, as we sort of wrap up this conversation then for men who may be listening to this and trying to figure out how can I take that next step towards being a slightly better next step level spiritual leader, taking into account everything that you've talked about, just what are some practical growth areas or ways that we can move ourselves forward? it just reading our Bible more? it just, there books that we can read? Like what would you suggest as sort of growth steps for men listening to this podcast?
Dan (44:26.836)
I think it's important to get with other men.
and be able to have these conversations open and honest and be able to say, hey, I'm struggling being the best husband that I can be, or I'm struggling with being the best father. can be getting with other men that can actually sharpen us. As iron sharpens iron, so another man sharpens the countenance of another man.
I think there's an important element to that aspect. I think our time with the Lord is key. We talk about seeking first the kingdom. We talk about prayer, praying. We talk about spending time with the Lord. But do we? Do we really spend time with the Lord? And I'm all about
reading books that can help you on all of these things, but a lot of times for me, I'm just going to speak about my walk, but a lot of times those books become replacement for having to really go down deep with the Lord. And I am reading a book by John Eldridge right now that just the whole challenge of the book is will you let God go deep with you, where you actually take the time
Not to read somebody else's book not to read, you know, somebody else's thoughts or opinion But actually to just go before the Lord open your Bible and to actually say okay Lord use your word to penetrate deep down in into me and when we do and when we do that, that's I Mean I'm gonna maybe oversimplify her. That's all we really need If you want to be a good spiritual
Dan (46:21.772)
Head to your family, right? If we're using that terminology of that, right? Then let's go to our spiritual head and let's get a download from him because he's gonna give us the things that we can't give out on our own. know, Pastor John used to say, you can't give what you don't have. So you wanna be a good spiritual leader, guess what? You're gonna have to get it from your father.
Brett Ethridge (46:38.922)
That's right. I say that all the time. Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (46:44.34)
Yeah.
Dan (46:47.2)
And as you get it from your Heavenly Father, now you can just let that overflow. You know, Jesus said in John, I think seven, somewhere in the thirties, but something to the effect of, who's thirsty come to me and streams of living water will flow from them. Streams of living water. If you want to be a spiritual lead, be somebody that is so filled up with God that streams of living water flow from you.
And in doing that, you will be the best spiritual leader that you can possibly be.
Brett Ethridge (47:23.136)
connect with the source. I'll sort of conclude and I think it summarizes some of what we've been talking about but certainly welcome any thoughts on this set of verses because I think we can boil a lot of what it means to be a spiritual leader in our households to Deuteronomy 6 verses 4 through 9. says, Hear O Israel.
Dan (47:25.26)
Yeah.
Brett Ethridge (47:51.978)
Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home, when you walk along the road, when you lie down, when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the door frames of your houses and on your gates. Go to the sources you were talking about. Connect with your Holy Father.
the head, Christ is our head, and then just tell our kids about that all the time in everything that we do. To me, that's a pretty good way to think about really what we are called to as fathers in this vein.
Dan (48:34.23)
That's really good. That's really good. We're teaching a series, well we're just going through the book of Corinthians right now at church, and I just did a message on chapter 10, and I summed up the whole thing very similar to what you just said, but I think Paul's heart for the church at the very end of chapter 10, he basically says, no matter what you do, do it all for the glory of God.
Brett Ethridge (48:35.413)
Yeah.
Dan (48:58.666)
so that all may be saved. And it just, it always kind of strips down and comes back down to love God and love others. And that's it. Are we living in such a way that everything that we do is bringing glory to the Lord? And I would submit that if we are, then the automatic overflow of that is we will love others well, which includes our wife and our kids.
and everybody else. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things are added unto you.
Brett Ethridge (49:37.578)
That's good. That's good. As always, it's always a joy to talk to you, to have these conversations. I hope you guys, the listeners, have been blessed by this conversation. It certainly shifted my thinking about this. I wasn't quite sure exactly where we would go on this conversation. And I hope you guys have been blessed as well. I am sure that you have. by the way, I feel like we should have had you on for the protector because now I'm going to have to totally rethink what I was going to talk about as father as protector. Wait.
Pastor Dan said our wives are actually the protector. I still think there's a role that we have to play as fathers as well. So listeners, you can stay tuned for that in your feed at some point. But for now, I will sign off on this episode of the Faithful Fatherhood podcast. Go out, be blessed, and we'll talk with you again soon. Take care, everyone.
Yeah, good stuff. It's going to put it to the test. There was about a two minute section there where not maybe not two minutes, but you were sort of your voice wasn't matching up with your, audio wasn't matching up with your voice and then you were really staticky. So, that's supposedly all taken care of with the way Riverside works. It's supposed to deal with all that. Your internet can supposedly completely glitch out and it's still sort of recording on your computer and then syncing it all up. So it's going to put it to the test. I'll see how this works.
Dan (50:53.131)
Yeah, you froze a few times. And so I just kept on rolling.
Brett Ethridge (50:59.744)
I think it's gonna be fine. If not, I still have the audio and I could snip it all together and I got enough of everything that if I have to cut out a small little section, it's fine. But no, I think it was all really, really good. So wait till that little purple thing gets to 100 % and then in fact, I'll go ahead and stop it.
Dan (51:10.668)
Awesome.
